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Why is Robert Simmons trademarking so many crystals???

topic posted Tue, April 29, 2008 - 11:12 AM by  Lyrissa
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Hi all,

I just wanted to bring this to peoples attention as I feel it needs to be highlighted and im wondering if anyone else is concerned about this latest trend which seems to be needless and out of control. Ill try and explain all I know and hopefully others will share what they know too.

Up until recently the only stones I knew of that were trademarked were Boji Stones. This was done I believe to authenticate these stones and they were also put through a special activation procedure. Then there was Super Seven, discovered and named by Melody. There is Nebula Stone which again was trademarked by the couple who discovered and named this stone.

Over the last year or so I began to notice quite a lot of crystals on the market that were being trademarked. Satyaloka Quartz, Azeztulite, Nirvana Quartz, Agni Gold Danburite, Satya Mani Quartz, Clear Light Calcite, Gold Sheen Azeztulite, Tanzan Aura, Imperial Gold Aura, Moldau Quartz, Circle Stone and more... What do all these stones have in common? Robert Simmons... For those who dont know, Robert Simmons is the owner of Heaven & Earth Jewelry and the author of several books on crystals, the most well known is The Book of Stones.

I have seen many people selling these crystals online such as on Ebay who have started to not only place the trademark symbol (TM) next to the name of the crystal but also use the TM every time they mention the name of the crystal in the listing! Its like they think they are going to get sued for discussing these stones. I heard that Robert Simmons has 'asked' certain Ebay sellers to stop selling their Azeztulite and Satyaloka Quartz crystals as he is the sole supplier of these crystals and they I assume didnt buy directly from him?

Hmm, I thought Azeztulite had been around for a very long time, I cant remember hearing Robert Simmons name mentioned in connection with this stone till now so I did some research. Azeztulite was named by crystal healer and author, Naisha Ahsian through her channeling work in the early 90s. Although she is a co-author with Mr Simmons on The Book of Stones I didnt see why he would have come to own this tradename. I looked up Azeztulite on the official US Trademark website and found something very interesting. Turns out Robert Simmons was in fact the owner of the trademark Azeztulite, but only since March 2007! This explains why in my Book of Stones (2005) he does not mention any trademarks. In fact if you look up this trademark yourself, the previous owner was someone called Colleen Moran who lost ownership because she died a month after she bought the name. According to the official US trademark website, a week after she lost it "Heaven & Earth" bought it.

Looks like Satyaloka Quartz was also only purchased from Mr Simmons in 2007. Some of the trademarks didnt come up which I can only assume are because they have only recently bought these or the website isnt up to date yet. I recently bought a newly discovered crystal from India called Satya Mani Quartz, I had no idea that it was already trademarked by Robert Simmons at the time. It was only when I bought a second piece somewhere else where it came with a guarantee card. It says "Accept no substitutes" and comes with the following message:

"Satya Mani (TM) Quartz is a trademark of Heaven & Earth LLC. H&E asserts Trademark and Copyright protection for this name and written copy on this card, as well as other explanatory writing about these stones."

Thats a bit general isnt it, what exactly is he saying at the end? Can nobody write about 'your' stones Mr Simmons? Turns out in the latest edition of his book he has highlighted which stones he owns the trademark on and out of all the new crystals added to this revised edition, only one was not trademarked by him! There is a debate about this in the reviews on Amazon.com. Dont get me wrong I loved his book and I like these crystals but the trademarking seems to have spiraled out of control and seems to be more about getting the monopoly on new crystals. I dont hear a spiritual teacher any more I just see the actions of someones ego on overdrive.

The crystal world is important to me and I dont want it turning into a control system with people at the top making big money and using fear to make sure we only buy from them. I dont think im the only one whos starting to get sick of this trademarking and copyrighting of mother earths gifts. There is only so much crystal lovers will take of this before there is a backlash. I have noticed that some of his stones are already becoming known under alternative names... Nirvana Quartz a new crystal from the Himalayas trademarked by you know who. I still dont understand if the locals realise he sells these on under this name or if he has somehow managed to buy a Himalayan mountain ;) But I do know that stones from the same place are being sold under the peoples name of Himalayan Ice!

The main question is, is trademarking crystals even ethical? Do we really need need trademarks on our crystals? Why is Robert Simmons trademarking so many stones other than to fill his bursting bank account? Excuse me if im wrong but to my knowledge, NOBODY OWNS CRYSTALS BUT MOTHER EARTH!


Lyrissa
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Lyrissa
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  • Good question. Thanks for brining this to everyone's attention, it seems like it could be really important. It sounds a lot like Monsanto's campaign to patent and own genetic codes and therefore biological entities. Lets keep all life free from patent and trademark! No one owns these crystals, their names, or the information that pertains to them.
    • IMO...here are some possible reasons. These are just possibilities, and by responding to this question, I am in no way implying that any of these apply to Robert Simmons or his company.

      1. Marketing and business experts know the value of trademarking a product. If you can claim that you are the only one with the genuine item, you can more effectively control the price, and also enforce your trademark with legal action.
      2. If you promote yourself as an "expert" in recognizing the energetic and metaphysical properties of stones and crystals, and secure rights to what you consider to be the "official" source, then you can act as a "defender" of the purity and accurate identification of them, and make sure that they are a reliable and consistent product.
      3. If you trademark a crystal type, and write very detailed and extensive descriptions of what they can do, often based on channeled or intuitive information, then even very inexpensive material can be sold for really high prices, because of all the fantastic and amazing things it can do.
      4. Even if other people are successful in obtaining the same material from the source mine, or from geologically equal deposits in the same region, you can promote your trademarked material as genuine, and characterize anything else as being inauthentic.
      5. Anyone who wants to sell virtually identical material without the threat of, or actual legal action, will have to create a new name.
      6. Trademarking a product, is a way to protect and recover your investment in discovering, producing, or promoting it, and guard against imitations or inferior substitutes.

      While Robert Simmons is probably the most visible and famous person trademarking crystals and stones, there is nothing new or unusual about this practice. In business, it's wise to be prepared for all opportunities and possibilities, and take advantage of them. Also, while we may all have our own opinions about how this relates to the world of gems, stones, and minerals, or the assumed or suspected motives of people who trademark them, another way to answer the question, "Why is Robert Simmons trademarking so many crystals???," would be to ask him.
      • You know, really these people are not trademarking the crystal itself. They are trademarking a name only. There is nothing preventing other sellers from claiming to be selling the same stones. They can allege that their stones come from the same place, or nearby, or have "Azeztulite like" energies. I mean, any sellers of this particular quartz who were going to distinguish it from "just quartz" in the first place were going to have to call it something or other to distinguish it, right? They are free to make up their own name. I hear people claiming that it's "always been called Azeztulite," but this name was hatched by Naisha who is a colleague of the Simmons so I can see why they feel justified in executing the copyright.

        I just cannot believe what I am hearing when sellers of metaphysical crystals are shouting "but it's just quartz!" Tell us how many times you have heard those very words from people scoffing at the whole idea of quartz having metaphysical properties. In a sense, you are turning their argument back on yourself.
    • In my opinion Azeztulite has very, very unique energies and is not "just quartz" in terms of energetics. Given the reported widespread fakery going on with Azeztulite, I can see why the people who originated the material via Naisha would be interested in preventing the debasing of the material and its name. Were the material widely available and just laying around with the same relative abundance as regular quartz then copyrighting it would be futile and perhaps unnecessary anyway, but the material is available only from specific deposits of quartz which limits availability and raises the price, and with that the tempation to pass off more mundane quartz as Azeztulite. I can feel the difference just holding the material, but novices or newcomers to crystals could be fooled. The injustice of that is that later on in their experience with crystals as they become more sensitive and attuned they would be disappointed in a crystal in their collection called Azeztulite that had no unique energetic signature. Why do you think experienced light workers continue to fork over money for Azeztulite? They are not buying some typical quartz crystal. False hypes don't last in the market as long Azeztulite has, and they especially don't keep on bringing in high prices consistently as has Azeztulite.
      I have no idea as to the veracity of the story behind Azeztulite's energizing by hyperdimensional beings or whatever. The story is immaterial to the actual feel of the material itself. The material speaks for itself as far as I am concerned, and I've got nothing against someone trying to protect the good name and integrity of the stuff by protecting the source with a copyright. Really this quartz is too precious and unusual for us to be arguing about the protection of its identity. More importantly, we should be just trying to get it in the hands of the right people.
      Bo Long
      • Unsu...
         
        bo, i totally agree with you on this one. i have seen so many people hold a piece of azeztulite, and have chills up and down their bodies immediately. i have never seen this with milky quartz. i also know first hand, after starting to work with the azeztulite i also began seeing balls of light around me. 6 months later i also saw an ufo on the day pluto was alligned with the galactic center. i feel an extremely high frequency of energy in azeztulite, and it really opens and resonates with the throat and crown chakras. i have never seen regular quartz have such a direct opening on the throat chakra like azeztulite does. my guess is that the people who are debunking the azeztulite may have unknowingly tried something else being passed along as azeztulite (in my opinion, even more reason to copyright for quality control on this one).
        • kristalina-

          I respect that Azeztulite has been such powerful medicine for you.

          I will say, for the sake of clarity, that I have spent time with stones that are, without a doubt, the "real" Azeztulite from North Carolina, and the "new find" from India. These are the "real deal" from the "real source", and, for me, while beautiful, they are not exceptional in the ways that have been suggested.

          Everyone's experience is difference, and I respect that. I still feel that, in some cases, the marketing hype most definitely taints the experience. Not for everyone - and I'm not suggesting it's true for you - but it definitely happens.

          Respect,
          Veg
          • The problem with the term "marketing hype" is that it could be applied to the entire crystal energy movement as I'm sure all the sellers are aware of having been verbally assaulted at their booths by people who think the whole thing is just marketing hype. "Marketing hype" is the accusation often leveled at anyone promoting crystals as conduits of higher energies, so it strikes me as abit hypocritical for sellers to be accusing
            the Simmons of this sin when everyone selling crystals could be accused thusly. They are being accused of "making claims" but so do all sellers of metaphysical crystals.

            Bo Long

    • The problem with the term "marketing hype" is that it could be applied to the entire crystal energy movement as I'm sure all the sellers are aware of having been verbally assaulted at their booths by people who think the whole thing is just marketing hype. "Marketing hype" is the accusation often leveled at anyone promoting crystals as conduits of higher energies, so it strikes me as a bit hypocritical for sellers to be accusing the Simmons of this sin when everyone selling metaphysical crystals could be accused thusly. Accusing the Simmons of "making claims" is like the pot calling the kettle black.


      The Simmons' copyright governs a name only. It does not really restrict sellers from selling the stone if they too have found or think they have found the same stone or a similar stone. Sellers can even describe their stone as having "Azeztulite like" energies or as having come from "the same deposit" or a "deposit nearby." That happens with “Super Seven” all the time. They just can’t use the name "Azeztulite" though they will be hitching a free ride on the promotion of the stone already done at the Simmons' expense if they use “Azeztulite” as a reference. Gee, what a bum deal for you sellers out there. Do you guys actually think that all of the marketing and promotion done at great effort, time, and expense by people like the Simmons and Melody
      have hurt your market? I think in all likelihood this “marketing” has created a big part of your market and, more importantly, it has educated lots of people on the subject and brought them out of the woodwork and in to your stores and booths. “Marketing” doesn’t always connote vulture capitalism. It can also be synonymous with “spreading the word.”
  • How can anyone 'prove' a trademark on a stone? Geez, seems like we just need to ignore those who try to trademark our gifts from earth. We will call them whatever we like, barter them as we please, and use them freely as always. The best way to stop this guy, and others like him, is to NOT play by the rules they make up and try to impose on us, and just go about our merry way as always.
    • Agreed.... and a "greed" is whats its all about....... money money money... The sad thing is that intelligent people pay the high prices in the first place. The Japanese buyers are the ones paying the price that jacks it up for the rest of us. That may be about to change with the troubles in Japan when the buyers want a better feel from their stones. But then again I am sure the sellers of trademarked stones to Japan called in all the credit cards as soon as they saw the Tsunami had hit.
      I stopped buying any trademarked stones a few years ago after getting a tainted feeling from any TM stones I held at the trade shows.... Maybe people should look deeper when handling any stone contaminated with TM...........

      Rox
  • Unsu...
     
    It is the way he operates his business. Been so since as far back as I can remember into the early 1990s.

    Unfortunately, it's all marketing and show. Find a stone, have someone undertand how the stone works with humans in some extra-ordinary "this is the latest and greatest thing" sort of flash and hype way, then trademark the name so no one else can profit from it only H&E can profit from it by charging very high prices.

    Are his trademarked stones worth the price and hype? The answer to this question lies in every invidual's point of view, but my point of view may be guess at through this e-mail.

    Frið (Frith),
    Jorvik
    • Rya
      Rya
      offline 0
      Hi everyone, I really appreciate all of your efforts to understand,
      I am new to this crystal world, and I feel sad about this topic, I agree that we should not be able to own the beauty, spiritual aids and gifts of the great mother. However this presently is what is happening, and although it is only the name that is trademarked of course the the rest of the crystals with the same properties but without the name are hard to find, and you don't know if your getting what your hoping for.
      I am grateful to the expertise and the connections that other people have with understanding and interpreting the metaphysical properties of the crystals. I would like to be able to trust that this is true insight and not just a sales pitch.
      I am don't mind that they trademark their insight, to protect themselves and the integrity of the crystals in question. I however do mind, that with the trademark goes the incredible rise in the prices, and that common stones are being made rare.
      I could be gaining advantage from this as I am presently starting a sacred jewelry business, but I was hoping to make beautiful powerful sacred jewelry that would be accessible to the majority of this world. And not only, to the very rich! Seeing how most of the stones which are supposed to be truly powerful have also become so expensive, it will be hard to keep my prices down like I was hoping to.

      I am now appealing to all of you who know so much more than I do, if any know of you know of a bulk or wholesale place to get these most powerful of crystals at reasonable prices. Or if you happen to know of the alternative names of these trademarked and expensive stones, which are hopefully just as powerful, but at prices available to the mass.

      Love and blessings, to all with gratitude, Rya
  • Unsu...
     
    Ive noticed this lately... Im not sure its good news for the crystal world to be honest. I only just found out Tanzan Aura and Imperial Gold Quartz were trademarked by Robert Simmons but I think people are using their own names as they are also known as Indigo Aura and Tangerine Aura. If people are not happy about this trade name stuff then I think we need to use alternative names.
  • I met Robert Simmons at Tuscon, this year.
    I questioned him as to why he had removed some stones from the new edition of his book. He told be that the stock were running out and he no longer had any of those stones in HIS inventory for sale. I kind of got pissed off at that, I told him that just because the stones he was out of inventory and that the stones were running out at the source didn't mean that they ere no longer going to be available or that we would stop using them for energy work.

    Either the book is a comprehensive guide to stones or it isn't. In the case of the Book Of Stones, it is no longer a comprehensive guide. Stones are being included or excluded based on retail availability through Heaven and Earth.
    • Hmm, anyone familiar with Marcus Vogel?

      I'm not familiar with Mr. Simmons, but Vogel trademarked a specific cut of crystal, and maintained that it was not only the shape but the intent, that effected the final result.

      As is, it sounds like RS is effectively tapping out entire natural deposits of highly specific and unique crystals, which would make some geomantic types kinda twitchy. Messing with the ley lines, and stuff like that....
  • Friends-

    He trademarks stones so he can sell them at ridiculous prices and make them look exclusive to Heaven & Earth.

    "Azeztulite" is Quartz. Nothing more. Nothing less. But it sounds so much more special - and, coincidentally is so much more expensive - when you call it Azeztulite. And lo' and behold, as soon as they started running low and the "original find", other "finds" of Azeztulite started popping up, all with much hype and prices to match.

    For years, there was a lot of secretive nonsense around "Azeztulite", with all sorts of convoluted geological misinformation being spread. It's Quartz. Plain and simple. And I Love Quartz as much as anyone else, but the hype around "Azeztulite" is, I feel, just that.

    To me, this represents the very worst sort of ethics, one all too common in "new age" circles. There are a lot of people I know who won't buy from Heaven & Earth for this reason. I'm among them.

    It's interesting to read that he removed some stones from his book of stones because his stock was low. I always had a feeling this "book" was really little more than a sales catalog. That seems to confirm it.

    For me, I've made a choice that I won't support this sort of practice, and don't buy from people who engage in it. Nice stones or not, I feel that this sort of thing is just wrong. On other levels it strikes me as downright silly.

    Ultimately, they continue to do this because people believe the hype. When they stop, so will he.

    Veg

    • p.s. Someone else that's "good" at this sort of thing is Rosley from Chicago. "Infinite" is a great example. It's African Serpentine that's been around for ages, selling for a few bucks a pound. He "finds" it, calls it "Infinite", spins all sorts of crazy hype around it and then begins selling it by the gram. And it sells like hotcakes. I guess just calling it Serpentine may be too pedestrian for some.

      Ugh.

      I hope more people will decide not to support this sort of thing. It just perpetuates it and makes it worse. It makes a mockery of the real medicine of the Earth Elders and, in many ways, makes us all look like fools.

      Veg
      • I have two Official pieces of Infinite and some Serpentine with Asbestos and I bet even Rosely could not tell which is which because they are the same the official stuff was a gift so I did not pay 15 bucks for a couple of stones about the size of a fifty cent piece
        the African Serpentine with Asbestos three were part of kits that included 31 0ther quarter sized mineral specimens for 12 bucks a set
        and two were found in someones rock garden I've got other stones that would pass a Infinite too the trademark name is for the purpose of protecting the advertising budget IMO
        • It's interesting to see this thread resurface. If your goal is to make beautiful jewelry available at a reasonable price, than it's inconsistent with using H&E's trademarked stones. Even if you could get the same stone from the same mine, or identical ones, you wouldn't legally be able to use the H&E name. In many cases, H&E's trademarked stones begin as inexpensive material, and the apparent extra cost of H&E's stones comes from their creation of a name and description. They are stories supported by excellent marketing, and can transform common looking material usually sold by the kilo, into amazing metaphysical stones priced by the carat. Often, even the non-trademarked material they sell is available elsewhere for much lower prices. I recommend that you search out your own sources for stones. The Denver Fall show is next month, and there will be vendors (including us) from all over the world with lots of nice energy stones. You can use your own sensitivity and intuition to select ones that fit your goals and budget, and create your own descriptions as appropriate.
  • I agree with you, Veg.
    Let's just do out thing, let the stones do theirs, and these charlatans will fall by the wayside.
    • Right on Suzi!

      Veg
      • Unsu...
         
        i just have to chime in about the azeztulite here........it chemically is quartz, but it has a very high frequency that feels way different that quartz that has not been energized with energy from the great central sun and the azez. if you hold a piece, and you are sensitive to energies you can feel a huge difference. i can see in this one case, how they would want to "trademark" this one so that others do not try and sell milky quartz and call it azeztulite.
        • kris-

          I appreciate that what you said is true for you, but for me, I feel no difference between "Azeztulite" and Quartz.

          I have worked with stones half my life, and extremely sensitive to their energies and am surrounded by many other sensitive people. None of us feel any difference at all.

          In fact, the majority of people I know - if they haven't been exposed to the hype around "Azeztulite" - feel no difference.

          There are some amazingly high vibe members of the Quartz family - Growth Interference Quartz from Dalnegorsk, the Quartz from Ouray, Diamantina Quartz, Russian Beta Quartz with Hedenbergite, Swaziland Quartz, etc. These, for me, are at least as powerful as Azeztulite.

          While these stones may not have the energy of the "great central sun" or connections with "azez" they are all infused with the powerful presence of the Earth Mother, the deep and powerful medicine of the soil and the sun and the spirit of the Earth. I don't feel "Azeztulite" is anything unique in any way - physically, energetically, spiritually, etc. It's a beautiful stone, whose medicine I appreciate, but no more so than any other.

          To me, "Azeztulite" is a prime example of "good" new age marketing, depending on one's definition of "good".

          Respectfully,
          Veg
          • Ah, you have touched on the sticky wicket right here. I think that advanced light workers need to be careful about the authority they project as advisers concerning the energy of various stones or rather that their authority should always be tempered with the caveat that they are people who have been through a lot of stones and become inured to lots of different energies. Some people never feel particular stones, but more to the point, some people will initially be consumed by a particular vibration and then be somewhat blinded to that energy as they become suffused with it. This happens all the time as you well know. My first “launch” or “breakthrough” four years ago happened with lithium quartz. The stuff would blast me off into outer space – very exhilarating and a bit scary. It was the first time the door opened for me, and I could say, “Now I get it,” but after some weeks of exposure I quit responding to it so dramatically. It is still a chill pill for me, but not as psychoactive as it used to be especially as I have progressed through moldavite and now the berylliums like phenacite and herderite, and now the “just quartz” Azeztulite. There are days of course when some crystals resonate with me and other days when I am dead to that particular vibration. It is way too variable for us to make negative pronouncements or verdicts about certain crystals. This is certainly something that needs to be considered by advanced light workers who have probably raised their own personal vibrations considerably over the years and can now only faintly feel stones that other people may find to be amazing.
        • I'm not mentioning names because people sometimes may be inclined to sue even when what is said is true
          Someone I highly respect who deal with stones on a small scale has told his students that once while at a major show he came upon
          An extremely well known dealer and writer out behind the building pounding on some Quartz with a hammer When asked this man said he was running low on Azeztulite and was making more. I don't know for certain that this refers to the owner of the name but I'd definitly suggest buyer beware

          Also I have some African Serpentine and some Infinite and they are the same ( I was given the Infinite )
          • Infinite is serpentine plus chrysotile.
            • Bo-

              "Infinite is serpentine plus chrysotile."

              This isn't entirely correct.

              There is no single stone called Serpentine. Serpentine is a group name, one that describes a handful of different stones with the same chemistry (more or less) but unique crystalline structures. In other words, we're talking about polymorphic minerals.

              Chrysotile is a type of Serpentine, and, to be more specific, Chrysotile is a group of three different specific types of Serpentine - Orthochrysotile, Parachrysotile and Clinochrysotile. The three minerals in the Chrysotile subgroup are usually asbestiform, while others in the Serpentine group tend to be non-fibrous.

              Infinite is the same African "Serpentine" that's been available for decades. The only difference is someone decided to make up a new name and begin selling it by the gram. It used to sell for $2.00 to $3.00 a pound when it "just" Serpentine.

              Respect,
              Veg
          • Azeztulite tends to come in large chunks or boulders. Fragmenting the material with a hammer is how it is reduced to manageable and affordable pieces.
            • It's interesting to hear that breaking large chunks of Azeztulite is necessary to make manageable and "a f f o r d a b l e" pieces. I've found plenty of very nice, high energy quartz pieces and chunks discarded around mines in Brazil, so it's not hard for me to keep an open mind about common looking quartz having a strong effect. Where I would need a lot of convincing, is that the material costs so much at the mine to justify being sold by the gram or by the carat. The biggest practical effect I've seen from trademarking a stone is that the price goes higher and higher, and in many cases it gets of reach for many people. After all, this is quartz, one of the most abundant minerals on earth.
              • Seann-

                "I've found plenty of very nice, high energy quartz pieces and chunks discarded around mines in Brazil, so it's not hard for me to keep an open mind about common looking quartz having a strong effect. Where I would need a lot of convincing, is that the material costs so much at the mine to justify being sold by the gram or by the carat. The biggest practical effect I've seen from trademarking a stone is that the price goes higher and higher, and in many cases it gets of reach for many people."

                I agree on all fronts.

                Veg
              • I've been looking at your website. You seem to specialize in Lemurians which you hint may have been specially charged by the Lemurian culture. At say a crystal show, what is your response to someone who comes up to you brandishing a long quartz point they just bought from a vendor down the way who sold it to them as a Lemurian for half of what you charge and you can see by the morphology of the crystal that it's not a Lemurian at all. Do you say, "Well, after all, it's just quartz anyway."
  • Wow thanks to everyone who has so far contributed to this discussion I am glad im not the only one who is not happy about this. I would like to chime in here just make sure that this topic does not turn into an Azeztulite debate as that was not my intension, whats been said is fine but lets get back to the main issue of trademarking and the possibility of someone gaining a monopoly on crystals.

    Lyrissa
    • Unsu...
       
      love can go very far, i think people should write robert and ask him these questions directly. i feel that saying that he may be gaining a monopoly on crystals is going a bit far with it. there are plenty of other places to get crystals from, cheaper options of the same crystals. at the tuscon show, robert simmons only has two hotel rooms with crystals where the whole city and every hotel just about is packed with other vendors and crystals.
      • I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with securing a crystal mine's total production, although depending on how much a mine produces, and how much of the material is it possible for a seller to move, that would often not be practical. For example, two years ago, when what I call the New "Clear" Lemurian Mine was in full production, the yield was over 1000kg/week. That was so much material, that many people had access to it, and it helped keep prices reasonable.

        From what I've observed with comments in regards to H&E, it's more an issue of them securing a crystal type in sufficient quantity to dominate the market place (at least initially), trademarking it so anyone else getting essentially the same material has to use a different name, writing up very detailed, "what an amazing stone" metaphysical marketing description, and then charging a high price relative to the wholesale cost of the material.

        If you want to maximize profits in the crystal business world, than this is a very effective model. You may offend some people who believe that trademarking crystals coming from the earth just somehow seems ethically questionable, as well as leaving stone descriptions out of a book you write because you don't sell them anymore. Who really knows (besides Robert Simmons) what the needs and goals of his business are, and why he uses these practices. It certainly gives us an opportunity to reflect on how we choose to participate when selecting, buying, or selling crystals.
    • One thing I have not seen revealed here - is the purpose of a trademark or 'trade name'. In our modern world, trademarks are to "assure the consumer (buyer) of the source of the product". This means that if you buy Reebok shoes, you as the buyer are buying shoes with that trade name because you know the company that makes them makes quality shoes. In the metaphysical stone, crystal, and mineral market, it is the same - you buy Infinite brand Serpentine with Chrysotile (Asbestos, by the way) because you want to be sure that the stone came from Steven Rosley, because you trust that he sourced it from South Africa and identified it as Serpentine with Chrysotile before selling it. This is a valid reason to buy Infinite brand stone, because many sellers are selling all sorts of a green rock as Infinite, from many different origins. As for Simmons, he's marketing worthless stones as something amazing, as anyone can plainly see. Take for example, Honey & Cream Azeztulite - this looks like what in my circle we call a "parking lot rock". This kind of trademarking is just insulting to the metaphysical trade.

      When you see the R in a circle, it means it's a registered trademark, registered with the US Patent and Trademark Office. When you see a TM it means it's a trademark claimed by "use in commerce", both of which will hold up in court to protect the owner of the trade name. But even a "registered" name is not protected if not used in commerce, it says so right on the USPTO website. It is by using the name in sales that gives you the right to own the name.

      So remember, the only reason you'd buy a trademark or 'trade name' product is - because you want to be assured the product came from the owner of the trade name or trademark. NO OTHER REASON. Nearly no one knows this, and trademark owners even do not promote knowledge of this. The only trademark owners that I think you can find actually explaining all this to the consumer are the trademarkers of the new stone Healite.... see www.healitestones.com to see what I mean. A rare thing that they actually explain the whole reason behind trademarking a stone.

      In ancient times, a trade name was used to "name" a stone. Ruby, Sapphire, Emerald... these are actually "trade names", just ancient ones. An Emerald is really a 'green beryl' crystal. Ruby is a red corundum, Sapphire a blue corundum. Of course in those ancient times, they hadn't the geological/scientific names beryl or corundum, but the point is the trade names. People could either say 'I have a red crystal to sell you if you want to buy it" or they could say "I have a ruby to sell you"... you'd ask "What's a ruby?" to which the seller would answer "a red crystal"! You see, the red crystal just needed a name. It's the way of things, things need names. But in our modern world, born and raised in the Matrix, most don't even think to wonder ..... what is the purpose of a trademark? We're so surrounded by them, our programmed world infused with them, that many of us don't even realize that a cheesy corn chip can exist without the name Doritos....

      They're just not as good as the brand name ones. Now after you buy a few different cheesy corn chips you’ll find that Doritos are the best. You’d probably find the same to be true with most of the trademark named stones and crystals also…. except when you buy a worthless one with a hyped up name by someone who’s written some books. Maybe the problem here is that we think if it’s in a book, it’s gotta be “the real thing”… another Matrix illusion.

      Maybe the best thing to trust is the overwhelming responses of interested people. How many “yea”s and how many “nea”s are there in this post alone for or against the value of Azeztulite brand white quartz scraps? Weigh it by that. If the negative comments outweigh the positive, or vice versa, you have the “popular majority” to judge by.

      Here’s my example: Blu-Ray dvd’s and dvd players. You can talk to 10 people who use dvd’s, anywhere – and you’ll get maybe 1 or 2, if you’re lucky, that swear by it… and the rest think it’s a joke. For me, that’s testimony enough to never buy them. To me, Blu-ray is hype, to get me to buy more expensive dvds and dvd players. Sure it may be a little better, but the same goes for Azeztulite… you get a little certificate of authenticity card with it, after all… a little more than you’d get from other sellers of white quartz scraps... if there were any, I guess.

      Peace, and wisdom be with you all.
  • I must admit I have never heard of Robert Simmons. The only "crystal" person I have heard of is Melody. I wonder what gives anyone an entitlement to tell anyone what a stone has to say to us? Sure, we all learn the generalities of each stone. There are so many books on teh subject. My teacher, a wonderful Medicine Woman named Sharon, let the stones teach me about them. She blindfolded me, put a stone in my hands, and had me tell her what I felt, saw, heard, anything that came to me from the stone. Then after I had told her about a stone, she told me what it was. That is how I learned about each different stone/crystal. Amazingly, almost 100% were as given in the books. The greatest lesson I got from that lesson was to let the stones tell me their story, not some "expert".
  • The problem with the term "marketing hype" is that it could be applied to the entire crystal energy movement as I'm sure all the sellers are aware of having been verbally assaulted at their booths by people who think the whole thing is just marketing hype. "Marketing hype" is the accusation often leveled at anyone promoting crystals as conduits of higher energies, so it strikes me as abit hypocritical for sellers to be accusing
    the Simmons of this sin when everyone selling crystals could be accused thusly. They are being accused of "making claims" but so do all sellers of metaphysical crystals.

    Bo Long
  • This is a new stone that ive seen about that has been trademarked and sold by Heaven & Earth, found this info here:

    "Circle Stones (TM) aka Crop Circle Flint (TM)

    In August of 2007 Robert Simmons and Kathy Warner traveled to England and had the profound experience of being inside a few Crop Circles. While they were in the circles they collected some Flint stones and found that the stones contained the extra energy of the Crop Circles. They brought some back and had them cut and tumbled.

    According to Robert Simmons, Circle Stones (TM) carry the currents of the Crop Circles. "The vibrations of the Circle Stones deeply stimulate the heart chakra, sometimes bringing tears of appreciation and gratitude."


    What do people think about this stone? I just wonder if the english farmer who owns that land knows that the flint on his soil was taken and is sold under a trademark?... hmmmm


    Lyrissa x
    • Lyrissa-

      I saw these, and, as always, I find the practice suspect. And I, too, wondered if the landowner knew that these stones would be trademarked and sold for high prices. And does this landowner get any of the financial benefit? I imagine it's quite unlikely.

      And, lo and behold, YET another find of "Azeztulite" has been made.... Sanda Rosa Azeztulite or something along those lines. Of course, the name's already trademarked. It seems that the new practice is to find any large deposit of massive, mostly opaque Quartz, trademark it and sell it for exceptionally high prices under the name Azeztulite.

      If this continues. Mr. Simmons will have a hard time sustaining his argument that Azeztulite is "rare". On the contrary, it seems anything but at this point.

      Veg

      • Do you never get excited about certain stones and descibe them in superlatives?
        • You know this is a rather important thread because it exposes what must be a mildly toxic atmosphere that prevails at crystal shows. I have never been to a crystal or mineral 'n rock show. I buy entirely off of Ebay and the internet, so I have no idea what happens at these shows, but it sounds like there is a fair amount of resentment and bad blood. What baffles me is the attack upon the Simmons' judgement with regard to crystal energies. Essentially, it sounds like some people do not trust their judgement. Well, that
          is their right, but it just sounds like carping to me because everyone spouts their own elaborate lore concerning crystals. What then gives you the right to cast aspersions on the Simmons judgments? Understand, this is a slightly separate question from the copyright thing.
          Below, for instance is Veg's reply to a post I started on the ++crystal solutions++ tribe site concerning shungite. This is an elaborate and some would say "over the top" description. I wouldn't say that because I am used to in-depth analyses of crystals and know where these practitioners are coming from, but the average skeptic would just laugh at these descriptions which in a way is what some of you are doing to the Simmons and for the same reason. Basically, you don't like their "style" and you are penalizing them for it by spreading speculation and scuttlebutt, but really your style is pretty much the same

          "Bo-
          I have spent a few years now working closely with Shungite.
          Shungite clears the subconscious of deeply held memories, including pain from past traumas. It is deeply penetrating and strong, but not overwhelming. They are deeply healing, and help us to find healing through closure. In other words, if our pain is due to something that should have been closed a long time ago, these stones will encourage us to do just that.
          In moments of acute shock, Shungite helps to stabilize a person quickly, to wrap them in a protective medicine that helps to hold them together until the shock dissipates. In that way, they are similar to a "rescue remedy" for us.
          These stones also act as a mirror, showing us self-sabotaging patterns, and, even more importantly, the root of these patterns - why we adopted them to begin with.
          Shungite also helps us to become aware of toxic emotional patterns that we bring into relationships, and the effects of such toxicity on us and those we are in relationship with.
          There's much more, but I hope the short overview is helpful in some way. The above reflects my own direct experience with this stone.
          Shungite has, to this point, only been found in a single location, near Lake Onega in the Karelia Republic of Russia. I've heard rumors of a new deposit that's being marketed under a trade name of some kind, but the details have been sketchy. There's also still more questions than answers when it comes to Shungite, including the presence of fullerenes and the origin of the same.
          Respect,
          Veg

          So what would your reaction have been if the above had been written as a Simmons "promo" for a "rare" mineral from "only one known deposit?" Had Mr. Simmons' bought up the entire output of Shungite and copyrighted some term like "Shungallah" would that render the mineral itself any less valuable metaphysically? Would you be justified in belittling his assessment of the mineral in light of the fact that your own assessments of minerals are also entirely subjective?






          • Bo-

            We're not talking about descriptions. We're talking about prices, marketing, suggesting something is rare when it's not. These are all quite different than sharing experiences alone.

            Mr. Simmons may have genuinely had the experiences he says he has with Azeztulite. That's not for me to say. What begins to smell fishy is when, along with these experiences, come exorbitant price tags. And, for many, there's a certain ego based silliness that comes along with trademarking stones.

            You're talking about one thing, when we're discussing another.

            Veg
            • No, you are indeed talking about descriptions. You have been insinuating that Simmons' description of Azeztulite is bogus, that it is "just quartz." Read back in your posts.

              The argument comes in two parts. There is the question of copyright which I am setting aside here for the moment.
              There is also the question of the veracity of the descriptions and whether or not you are on solid ground criticizing someone's subjective experiences with particular stones. I am saying that sellers of metaphysical stones or enthusiasts are on very shaky ground when they start badmouthing other people's experiences which is exactly what you were doing in earlier posts when you were saying it was "just quartz." You can't penalize a certain stone just because someone has copyrighted a name referring to that stone. For the sake of professionalism, a stone should be assessed independently of such considerations. There will continue to be new discoveries of metaphysically potent stones, but if fellow vendors start automatically black marking some of them because someone copyrights a name for the stone then there will be a loss of integrity concerning the properties. Let’s just say I find it “fishy” that not a few competing vendors are zeroing in on Melody’s and the Simmonses enthusiasms whenever they are accompanied by a copyright – a copyright which by the way does not necessarily monopolize the actual stone itself. It is just a copyright of a descriptor.

              By the way, shungite, because of its scarcity, has an exorbitant price yet neither you nor I are certain that it actually is scarce. We are just taking someone's word on that. Yet you still buy it because you are convinced it is worth it. Lots of us pay large money for scarce stones - phenacite, alexandrite, ajoite – it’s a long list.
              • Bo-

                There is a distinct difference between geological information and energetic experience.

                In the beginning, there was a lot of iffy geological information - or, at the very least, implications - that Azeztulite was something other than "just Quartz".

                I am not criticizing his energetic description, and never have. I've made that point clear, so please don't twist my argument into something that it's not, and never was.

                This discussion feels circular and unproductive to me. I've said what I have to say, and am finished with this dialog.

                Peace,
                Veg
                • Here are some quotes from you in the early posts. These statments are what started this whole discussion.

                  "He trademarks stones so he can sell them at ridiculous prices and make them look exclusive to Heaven & Earth. "Azeztulite" is Quartz. Nothing more. Nothing less. But it sounds so much more special - and, coincidentally is so much more expensive - when you call it Azeztulite."

                  "For years, there was a lot of secretive nonsense around "Azeztulite", with all sorts of convoluted geological misinformation being spread. It's Quartz. Plain and simple. And I Love Quartz as much as anyone else, but the hype around "Azeztulite" is, I feel, just that."

                  This is what I personally found distateful especially coming from a vendor who speaks in equal superlatives about other stones such as shungite.

                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    IMO...

                    For an example of what I consider an "over the top" description of a stone/crystal type description, read the pages devoted to "Nirvana" Quartz in the book of stones. We're not talking about a few paragraphs, it goes on and on, and some of what is said regarding it's discovery doesn't agree with what people who actually buy at the source, and know the area it comes from, will tell you. There was no glacier that melted due to global warming, after which the Nirvana Quartz was revealed, just at the right time, for our spiritual needs and evolution. This is material that is relatively abundant, and sells at the mine in mixed grade for $30 to $40. It was introduced as Nirvana Quartz in Tucson '07 by a friend of mine, bought up by Heaven and Earth, and sold at prices up to $1.50/gram.

                    More appeared in quantity in Denver '08, sold at first for $500/kg to select, and then later when more arrived at the show, the price dropped below $200/kg. Other Indian dealers at the show saw what was being charged for Nirvana and "Ice" (the non-trademarked version) Quartz , and said basically, "if you want that stuff, we can get you plenty at a much lower price."

                    In April of this year, I saw a mixed parcel (with plenty of very nice clear pieces) sold, at a profit. for $55/kg. This is how crystals and stones can level out the market place, and a good reminder to be aware of marketing techniques and common ways to create a "story." I love my pieces of Nirvana Quartz, but they are Quartz, and not some exotic mineral.

                    One of the fortunate benefits of my network of friends and contacts in Brazil, is that if I haven't personally visited a mine, I can usually speak with someone I know and trust who has, and find out the scope of production, fair cost, and expectations for the future. Miners work hard, have production costs, and - I feel - deserve fair compensation. I also believe that those who transport, market, and sell them are entitled to a fair profit and return for their efforts. And finally, that whenever possible, reasonable prices benefit us all.
                    • Seann-

                      Again, you make some excellent points.

                      I was thinking about Nirvana Quartz myself during this discussion. I've seen virtually the same thing you've described, both with this stone and with so many others.

                      All too often there is inaccurate information shared about these stones, usually to justify high prices and claims of being "rare". I'm not talking about people's experience with energy, but rather things like how they're found, the conditions under which they emerged, their rarity, geological composition, etc.

                      When this happens, as you said, we usually see stones that sell for reasonable prices by the pound, being sold for ridiculous prices by the gram. And obviously this marketing works, because the people who use it stick to it.

                      Hopefully, one day, people will stop supporting this stuff. I find it as sad as I do silly.

                      Respect,
                      Veg
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Bo-

                    You seem to have a hard time listening, and enjoying harping on things you either don't get or don't care to.

                    Veg
                    • Veg - Let me make this short. sweet, and simple. You yourself are perfectly capable of "going on and and on" about the meatphysical properties of stones as you have demonstrated in the one example I provided (shungite.) You seem to be saying that there is some cutoff point for allowable "going on and on and on" and that you stay within those bounds and the Simmons exceed those bounds. I think this is ridiculous. It's a double standard that verges on "holier than thou."
  • I've been looking at "Seann's" website. You seem to specialize in Lemurians which you hint may have been specially charged by the Lemurian culture. At say a crystal show, what is your response to someone who comes up to you brandishing a long quartz point they just bought from a vendor down the way who sold it to them as a Lemurian for half of what you charge and you can see by the morphology of the crystal that it's not a Lemurian at all. Do you say, "Well, after all, it's just quartz anyway."
    • Unsu...
       
      solari, why do you want to start conflict here?

      lets have peaceful loving communication flow through us :)
      • Well, I think it's a rather compelling discussion and the conflict seems to be ongoing within the crystal community - it sounds like bad blood within the community on this one issue, and I am trying to facilitate a release by going into what I think is really a psychological question fundamentally. That's where I was headed. On the other hand, I don't really like to argue. Perhaps we should just go play a game of basketball and forget it.
        • Unsu...
           
          i havent seen any conflict within the crystal community. i see alot of unity, sharing, and coming together of crystalline family on a worldwide and actually cosmic level. sure we will never all agree on some aspects yet that is the beauty of our individual paths. this is the first thread where anyone has decided to publicly criticize another member of our extended crystal family. it just happens to be the first thread that you came across. i think it would be a better solution to take things up with people directly, via private messaging or written letters...that is why i offered the suggestion of lerissa contacting robert himself instead of publicly starting a slanderous thread.

          one heart one brain one love!
          kristalina
          • I would like to apologise if anyone found my topic to be slanderous or attacking someone as that wasnt really what I wanted... I was emotional when I wrote it and if I could have reworded it im sure I would have left some bits out. Im hoping people get that I was bringing up a topic that I knew people would feel strongly about and if you re-read my post I do not question the vibrational qualities of these stones my issue is purely with the growing trend in trademarking minerals.

            Namaste,

            Lyrissa
            • Unsu...
               
              in my opinion, we just need to be mindful when bringing things up. we could of easily had a discussion on "trademarking crystals" without naming names.
              • Hi,

                That would be like talking politics without mentioning any politians. Even if I didnt mention him do you really think nobody else would? My issue is with the quantity of trademarks owned by one person and how many more will be purchased, I dont believe anyone else come near.
                • Unsu...
                   
                  you know what lyrissa, its your conscience.........just trying to help.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    Kristalina, It appears to me that it is your objecting to healthy debate and discussion that creates a sour note.

                    Speaking of sour notes. What a snotty comment Suzi. If you don't want to give the guy a chance, that's your own choice.

                    I've found this thread very interesting reading Lyrissa, thank you for bringing it up.
                    • Unsu...
                       
                      jazmin, if you think healthy debate is publicly making slanderous accusations about someone you have never met, than thats your opinion. i do not think that naming names in necessary in talking about the trademarking of crystals, and i am entitled to my opinion just like you are. healthy debate in my opinion, does not include saying someone is ego driven and greedy. why do you want to add fuel to the fire by saying suzi is making snotty comments? why cant we discuss things without being mean? love is the only way to fix things. lets please be mindful and realize that we are all one. sending love to all those who do not realize this.

                      one brain, one heart, one love.
                      • Unsu...
                         
                        kristalina, I am not interested in fueling anything you may see as a fire (?) Simply felt like telling it like I see it where snotty comments are concerned. Never suggested you didn't have a right to inject what I feel is your particular sour note either. If in someone's opinion another comes across to them as ego driven and greedy, so what? They are entitled to their opinion as you so rightly pointed out. Perhaps nothing actually needs 'fixing' Kristalina, but I would argue for your right to believe it does anytime anywhere....well perhaps not in some countries where free speech is strongly discouraged, lol.

                        You come across to me as very 'holier than thou', which in my view does not make for friendly relations. Maybe you would benefit from being more mindful of your own motives and attitude, just a thought.

                        All the best.
                      • Unsu...
                         
                        One other thought for what it's worth Kristalina, maybe you have to see 'slander' and 'accusations' and 'fire' where there is none because of your own need to play 'peacemaker' and 'all knowing one'.

                        Once again, all the best.
                        • Unsu...
                           
                          yeah, all the best? i really feel your positive intentions.

                          i can only send you more love jazmin. ((((((((((big hugs to you)))))))))))
                          • From the amount of the responses to this thread, it sure looks like it was a subject that provoked a wide range of feelings, opinions, observations, and comments. I think that while some of the comments were strong character or motivation assessments, it's good to bring business practices out in the open, and let people share their feelings. And as buyers, sellers, and/or users of stones and crystals, it's good to realize that business is business, and when it's mixed with metaphysical or spiritual domains, human nature will operate on all it's levels. I've personally had people who present themselves as very evolved beings, working for the benefit of all, make promises and then blatantly break them, when they no longer suited their immediate needs for making money with their business. There can be a sense of entitlement with people who believe they are on an enlightened path, more evolved than normal humans, that lets them depart from the most basic ethical standards of behavior because they are on a higher mission. While I'm not saying that RS is doing that, companies or individuals that promote themselves in the metaphysical community, and then engage in questionable practices (like not including descriptions of stones that they have sold in the past from their "comprehensive" book, because they no longer have them in stock to sell) are fair game for discussion. When you're the biggest company out there, and many people are influenced by or depend on you for information about crystals, then why not set an example of acting in the best interests of all.
    • Well, I'd probably just let it go. If they pressed me, I might say that it's not a style of Lemurian I'm familiar with. Lemurians look very distinctive, so your example would be much more unlikely to happen than for more common, unterminated quartz. I wouldn't say "after all it's just quartz," because I believe quartz is the foundation for crystal work and energy. My point in pointing out that we were talking about quartz, was to make a distinction between quartz, a material usually sold by the pound or kilo, and more expensive material like gemmy Tourmaline, Aqua, or Emerald, typically sold by the gram or carat..
      • Perhaps this is where we diverge. I will distinguish among the types of clear quartz as they differ according to their crystal geometries and the environment in which they grew. To me, quartz, is not a generic term. I have a bead necklace made from Lemurian quartz which generates a much more insistent energy than any other pure crystal necklace I have worn. Lemurians, for instance, have an energy unique to them which is both a product of their habitat and their shape, but the unique signature survives even reshaping into other configurations. If I was buying damaged quartz crystal by the pound for recutting I would pay more for Lemurian quartz relative to most other clear quartzes if I was selling the recut for energy work.

        The so called Nirvana or Ice quartz is a much different energy probably because of their torturous shape which generates the "cavity structural effect." Plus, trigonic quartz is a different quartz energy anyway whether it manifests in the Ice quartz manner or in any other type of quartz.

        Synthetic quartz made in high pressure canisters is much different in feel from naturally grown quartz. To me, it feels a bit less complex or nuanced. I love the Siberian blue because it has such a predictable note, however, and I use it as a reliable note in crystal combinations sometimes.

        When we start treating "quartz" generically, I think we are overlooking some things.
        • I don't agree that we diverge on that point at all. I have pendulums, spheres, and massagers custom made from damaged Lemurian Quartz, which, depending on the lot size and mining expenses, may end up costing more or less than similar looking or even clearer quartz. I prefer Lemurian Quartz, because most people can feel the energy difference right away, and I believe in its positive effects and benefits for spiritual development. I'm not using quartz as a generic term to say that all quartz is the same, because I don't think that's true. My main concern relative to this thread is that prices stay fair and reasonable, so that the maximum amount of people can benefit from crystal energy. For example, when the last clear crystals were taken out of the original Lemurian Seed Crystal mine, there were what I call Lemurian "Roots" left. I saw and felt their energy, and realized that they had amazing potential for crystal work. As they weren't clear, or even consistently terminated, they weren't material that would normally be thought as something worth selling. So the mine owners were happy to put together a lot for me at a very reasonable price. They are the least expensive Lemurians I sell by far, and IMO, compared side by side with the most clear and pristine regular terminated Lemurians, they are much more powerful. If I priced them based on power and energy alone, I could make lots more money, but I'd rather they get as wide a distribution as possible.
          • I would have to say then that you are unique as a businessman. Most of the stories I read on the net describing dealings with the crystal network from the miners on up as being typical games of haggling for price until an agreement is reached. The negotiations follow the age old strategies of bluff, wait and see, stalling, etc. I was recently reading about a American buyer's experiences in Pakistan where he was buying largely for the mineral collector audience and bargaining for spectacular, museum quality clusters, huge aquamarines and the like and the negotiations were intense, protracted, and tension filled. The miners life in Pakistan where the standard of living is precarious seemed a semi-desperate affair and the stakes high for getting the maximum price.
            Of course, when we are talking about more mundane specimens and "lot's" of less spectacular quartz I'm sure that the negotaions are more casual, but most business people, even in the elevated ethic of the metaphysical crystal world, are going to be thinking about maximizing their profit in an uncertain economic future.
            • I've mainly bought crystals in Brazil, and a few times in Colombia. I'm in Brazil every two months, and we have a regular circuit of mines and dealers we visit. For the most part, these are people I've known for years, and most are family companies. My goal is a price that works on three levels - for those at the source, our business, and our clients. I probably pay a little more at times, but I would rather have things be harmonious than push for a discount. In return I have supportive relationships with friends and suppliers, that save special material for me, because they know I appreciate them, and am looking out for their needs as well as mine. At times I get material for less than others, because we go right to the fair price, and don't get stuck in haggling. The really great deals (for all) balance out the ones where everyone knows that the price is higher than usual, and the parties each settle for less.

              Many people think that unless you beat the price down and negotiate really hard, that you will get taken advantage of, and pay too much. I've seen people push and push to get a really low price, and walk away very self satisfied, and then I find out later that the seller lost money on the deal. Why would they sell at a loss? Because they needed money for food, or a medical expense, or to cover immediate needs. Sometimes at a show, I get the "hey, I just got the same Brazilian material for lots less at the end of the show last year" comment. Maybe it was a great deal for all, but more often it was a fire sale price to get some cash for a ticket home, or to dump stock that can't be economically stored or shipped. Much of the material from Brazil is given to the dealers on credit, and a really low price can mean that the suppliers or miners back in Brazil aren't going to get paid. It's easy to give an incredibly low price to buyers in Tucson, if you aren't going to pay back your suppliers.

              Also, what works in Brazil may not necessarily work in another country, or between buyers and sellers from different cultures. In some places, the first price quoted may be three times what it can actually be sold for, including a fair profit, and people familiar with the material and process know how play the game.
              • You sound like a very fair fellow. Good on ya'.
                • Likewise.

                  I'm not sure that I'd want to buy a crystal that had as part of it's history negative, or unscrupulous behavior, in it's path to my hand.

                  That's actually an issue that is still of concern to me, pedigrees as far as fair trade and environmental responsability (deforesting a mountain to get at a deposit doesn't really turn my crank), probably moreso than attributed properties.

                  One of the most beautiful quartz specimens that I've ever seen (total radiance of clear white light), was simply a piece of quartz, from an anonymous source.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Brazil is making a big effort in this direction. Since August of 2006, mining permits require an environmental review to make sure natural water sources and other features are respected, and also a plan to reclaim or restore that land after. That's not to say that there isn't some contamination possible from pumps or equipment burning diesel, but for mining quartz, it is very minimal compared to other minerals.

                    Most quartz mines are cooperative efforts. For medium to bigger size ones, investors put up the money, administrate, and handles sales, while the miners work. Sometimes the miners are paid a standard wage, but more commonly they get a share of the profits. It's an association, and often sale prices need to be approved by the miners. Smaller operations can be one or a few more miners. They work together and share the profits. It can be fun negotiating, when one partner plays the role of convincing the other to sell, while he (or she) holds out for more. In one place where I've been going for the last 6 years, about 5-10% of the independent miners are women, and they usually are the most successful.

                    They just shut down all the Amethyst mines in the south, and are requiring much more stringent safety standards and regulations to protect the miners, as well as an increased minimum wage. Prices are expected to go up, maybe 30%, because mining costs will be higher. No one really knows how much the increase will be until production resumes. As the Amethyst mines are horizontal tunnels into volcanic basalt, there isn't any contamination like with open pit mining. The tailings pile up outside the entrance, but once the basalt rock is exposed to rain, it breaks down into soil over time.
                    • HI,

                      One thing I want to say is that I know the location and the mines of many of RS crystals and also know the prices that the miners charge. The mines literally charge in pounds and not grams, and RS's mark-ups are in the thousands. Most of the rocks are not rare, but are just re-invented with new names. I've personally had many of these crystals (boxes of them) in my possession before he picked up on them. I do believe in crystal healing and am a crystal healer, but what he's selling is not unique nor new and have been for sale by many "common" sellers for decades before he started to sell them.
                      • This is kind of fascinating to me. I don't want to argue the merits of the Simmons trademarks anymore. I'd just like to know why the output of these particular mines was considered unique in the first place. This quartz looks like "snow" quartz and has no particular esthetic distiction. Are you saying that this quartz was nonetheless singled out as being unusual for some reason? What did sellers of decades past call it? Why did they call it that, whatver it was?
                      • Rya
                        Rya
                        offline 0
                        Hi would you be able to tell me an alternative source of these powerful crystals, I am interested in working with what Robert Simmons calls Azeztulite, golden Azeztulite, and many other of these trade marked cyrstals. Their description which I am gullible enough to believe sounds so wonderful. I will be making beautiful sacred jewelry, but I want to find reasonable sources for the very powerful stones. As I wish to sell my jewelry at prices which will keep it accessible to the masses. I believe that Heaven and Earth should be accessible to everyone who wants them.

                        Blessings and love, with gratitude, Rya
  • Just saw Simmons' letter "is azeztulite for real" on his website. There's about a paragraph in it that show's his take on your concern. Here's the link - heavenandearthjewelry.com/ecomm...liteAr
    Hope that helps round out this discussion.
    • I have recently been revisiting my Azeztulites and remain enthusiastic about their energies though one can burn out on them through overuse. Reminds me of moldavite and phenacite in that respect. Whatever one may make of the Simmons and Naisha, there is no doubt in my mind and experience that this form of quartz has an unusual energy and that it is not "just quartz" which phrase has always struck me as being hugely ironic for crystal enthusuasts to be using in the first place.

      Personally, I think Azeztulite is a good ally in times of upheaval and emergency which may explain why I have returned to it lately.
  • I will not purchase or sell "trade marked" crystals or stones. It goes against my gut feeling.

    Suzie had it right in her post, it is a direct communication from the rocks to you. A teacher can HELP but a teacher never dictates nor trademarks.

    The biggest amount of bologna I saw on here from from someone who (basically) said.. "well its all metaphysical myths.... so whats so bad about these folks taking it.. and running full tilt with it? Its not any different from any metaphysical seller does, including you."

    Teaching others HOW to reach their own conclusions, from their own inner gut feelings (spirit, soul, whatever you call it) is a good thing.

    This type of thing repeats all throughout history.. someone says something cool and everyone else mimicks, copies, ect. But what is important isnt who said what, who did what, or even what is the real truth behind it all? None of that is important. What is really important is having your own bullcrap meter, and being able to use it - in spite of another persons "authority" or "expertise". In spite of a 3000 year old legend or a book that says goobly gook about goobly gook.

    My very own, personal bullcrap meter goes off like crazy when I read about this Heaven & Earth crap and their trade marked junk. This is not a metaphysical back alley where anything goes!!!

    Some of us - in spite of any hype - will just know because we are in touch with our own inner BC meter. :D And I am so glad for that.
    • I bet your bullcrap meter does not always agree with others's bullcrap meters. Welcome to the human condition, and, as they say, "Get over it."
      • By the way, one of the biggest brands out there is the "lemurian crystal" brand.
        • Unlike the many trademarked stones of Robert Simmins, "Lemurian Crystal" isn't a brand. That's like saying Tangerine, Elestial, or Laser Crystals are brands. As "Lemurian Crystal" isn't trademarked, anyone can use the name. Various mines and countries produce Lemurian Crystals. It's a style of crystal, that can be recognized by its "Muzo" growth habit, source, and energy. IMO, it's a good example of keeping a crystal style name in the public domain for all to use.
          • Wow. This argument again? How many years should it continue?!
            • How about, if you don't like channeled information on crystals then do the research yourself and get the scientific information. If you want channeled information, channel it yourself. Everyone's view is different, everyone's reality is different, and EVERY stone is different. Instead of bashing other people's information, find your own.
              • "Lemurian" is a brand to the extent that it is used as a selling point. I have heard people argue that Lemurian quartz is "just quartz" and technically it is. However, there are sellers who beg to differ and who invoke the "lemurian" name to distinguish it from "just quartz." The Lemurian name was hatched in the new age by new agers as the name makes obvious. It is a new age "brand" in every sense of the word. Just because it is isn't trademarked doesn't mean it isn't a "brand." It is used as a brand, and it is sold as brand to distinguish it from "just quartz."
                I wholly agree with Teketa. Rather than mope around about a certain seller coming up with trademarked names for certain stones one's energies would be better spent exploring and distinguishing stones according to one's own lights. I recently ran into someone who was selling the material that the Simmons call "Rosophia." Of course, the seller wasn't calling it "rosophia." He was calling it "red robin" because it made him feel like singing. So, golly gee, the Simmon's trademark was having no effect whatsover on his ability to trade in the material and promote the material according to his own deliberations and judgements.
                • Hey Solari, with all your experience, I'm surprised that you consider Lemurian quartz as a brand, used to sell crystals. Lemurian Crystals have a characteristic energy and growth habit (google "muzo growth habit" to find out more.) I've visited the original and newer mines on the Serra do Cabral in Brazil many, many times, and the mountain top is an amazingly pleasant, and spiritual place to be. Wonderful fresh air and flowing water, incredible rock formations and views, and an abundance of Lemurian crystals. Katrina Raphaell gave the crystals the Lemurian name, so it's certainly "new age."
                  As someone who has personally and often been in the mines, seen the crystal formations, and been fortunate to have helped get tens of thousands of them out in the world, using the name Lemurian is a world of difference compared to trademarking a name, boosting the price, and not letting anyone else use your legal, registered name, for the exact same crystal from the same mine. I like the Lemurian name, because the Lemurian crystals invoke and produce a very consistent, energetic response. Sure, they vary individually like all crystals, but if you give one to a person to hold, who has no knowledge of the name or legend, or even any past experience with crystals, and ask them to describe their feelings and sensations, what they almost always say is consistent with the type of consciousness and awareness attributed to the mythic Lemurian civilization. I've seen this happen hundreds of times. My own take on this is that the quality of the quartz, geology where it formed, and it's growth habit, all contribute to its energy.
                  Saying Lemurian quartz is a brand used to distinguish it from other quartz, is like saying that Moldavite is a brand, used by sellers to distinguish it from other tektites. I think what many people don't agree with is taking a variety of quartz, legally trademarking it, restricting anyone else from using the name, and using it as a marketing tool. It's a limiting, selective, technique. I agree with you and Teketa that people are far better off "exploring and distinguishing stones according to one's own lights," but not everyone has that ability sufficiently developed. When stones are marketed based on their trademarked name, to the exclusion of the same material from the same mine, available at a much lower price in the market, as being inferior and inauthentic, then how helpful is this to people who could use and benefit from them, but don't have the money to pay an inflated price? I think it's important that people are aware of the trademarking of stones, from a bigger perspective. That they realize that along with the trademark, goes marketing and hype. And that they factor that information in when evaluating a stone, quartz, etc., especially with their own experience.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    You completely don't get it, do you? I happen to own quite a few Lemurians. I love their energy. The point I was making it that they are being marketed just the same way as the Simmons are marketing, and that some of these snipers here need to look in their own grab bag of marketing tricks before casting stones at the Simmon's.
                    • I completely don't get it? Who has trademarked and legally owns the Lemurian name? It refers to a style of crystals, like smokey, elestial, Montes Claros, Diamantina Lasers, etc. Anyone is free to use the name, without threats of lawsuits, as has happened with trademarked crystals. No one is casting stones at the Simmons, just making the nature of one of their key business techniques publically known.
                      • I can call a Lemurian whatever I want and sell it as such. That is in effect what happened some years back when someone had the bright idea to call these floaters "Lemurian." I have also heard them called other names. I don;t care what they are called. I have heard many different crystals called many different names. i don't care. if the Simmons want to use a name and trademark it - I don't care. What difference does it make. Your real gripe it seems to me is not that the Simmons are trademarking some random name but that they are "cornering the market" on some crystal. If they privately own some deposit of something somewhere and don't allow anyone else to mine it and then trademark the name for these crystals - so what? You're not going to get your hands on those anyway. What is the problem?

                        Then let's say the Simmons get ahold of a bunch of lemurian types and decide to call them "Mu's" and trademark the name. So what? They are just trademarking a name - not a crystal. This shouldn't have any bearing whatsoever on any one else's business model or ability to deal in the Lemurian types of crystal. I just don't get what the problem is here. the trademark is just for a name. It does not describe the morphology of the stone. If it pertains to a crystal from a certain location then they already own the location, and have sole mining rights to the location, and they are demanding protection for a name pertaining to that location. Big deal! If you want to sell those types of crystal then find a similar deposit if you think it is special and call the damn thing whatever you want. You are going to have to call it something, and you will have to make up a name for it unless it is "just quartz." But we know that there is no thing as "just quartz" - right. If everything clear is "just quartz" then why bother making these distinctions such as "Lemurian" etc. in the first place? You make these distictions because you think that even clear quartz has morphologies that create energetic distinctions. The Simmons are saying the same thing as you are but making a further distinction. That distiction is born of their explorations for new deposits of crystals and deciding they are unique enough to be called a unique name. They are not demanding that someone else can't mine and market the same crystal - only that they can't use a certain name.

                        I just don't get what the big deal about trademarking a name is, and I don't understand what you are worrying about with this "teaching the consumer" tack you are taking. The consumer can see very well for themselves what is going on. The consumer is self sufficient enough to be trusted with purchasing decisions in a free market economy. the Simmons are not "pulling the wool over people's eyes" in any manner that I can see. Of course, we run into people all the time who think that calling a stone "Lemurian" is an act of "pulling the wool over people's eyes." Seems to me all you vendors might better spend your precious time helping to introduce and educate people about stone energies as have.... the Simmons.
                        • hey hey hey guys, a rock is a rock is a rock. Call it a crystal, call it a stone, call it your piece of glass...

                          This argument has been going on for years and it's still not going anywhere.

                          I'm going to sit on my gravelesque pile of azeztulite whilst calling all of my super clear quartz lemurian... I just channeled this information that told me that this piece of tigers eye I'm wearing is now lemurian tigers eye...

                          When it's channeled information from the get-go, how the hell can it be justified? There's teaching other people what your intuition tells you, and teaching yourself to follow your own intuition. Sometimes people are lazy and don't like to listen to themselves- so who's right?

                          everyone and no one. We're all the same.

                          Please stop bickering!

                          Much Love!
  • I have spent several years in the industry, from both a high end jewelry side and also the metaphysical end, I also spent 25 years in the medical industry where trademarking of medicine is rampant.
    I have been very concerned with the trend of trademarking stones, writing only about stones that are in personal stocks and the lack of integrity of several of the biggest names in the industry. Although I appreciate the marketing that H&E, Melody and others have done, the stones that they are able to buy by the kilo, sell by the carat I see a movement much like the medical industry.
    Where we have trademarked stones ( with no lab testing for authenticity to start with) and energy healers with little or no credentials I fear that this industry is on the fast track to mandated regulations much like the healthcare industry. This may seem very outlandish to some, but at the turn of the century there were no patented meds, physicians hung shingles and mid wives were more common than hospitals. As medicines became patented, where only one company could sell them anad make billions of dollars of proffits we have seen the healthcare industry turn towards more and more regulations to the point that physicans are not able to get medicines to patients that need them due to the patents and the politics that surround them.
    Although these are stones, and the work we do with clients is energetic, this is the same model that the pharmeceutical companies have used for years, find, patent, market and disseminate any competition no matter what the benefits might be to the patients.
    I too have met Robert Simmons in Tucson, wasn't impressed, was less impressed with Melody, my thoughts are that the individuals who are starting and defending the trademarking of stones are doing it for the profit, just as the pharmaceutical companies have done for years and been villianized for, the business practice is no different other than the pharm. companies are required to prove their product works and is somewhat safe to humans.
    I would be interested in seeing how many trademarked stones we would see if there was a requirement for lab testing behind the trademark, which there isn't. I would be interested to see how many trademarked stones we would see if practitioners were responsible for the effects of the energetic work done on clients, which they aren't.
    If we are serious about our alternative health industry and the products that we use and sell then honesty and full disclosure must be forefront, we can regulate our own industry or wait until the federal goverment comes in to regulate it. The healthcare industry was regulated in order to weed out those who didn't want to play ball with the pharm. companies ~ I prefer to keep it simple.
    I want to know what my stones are, what is the content of that stone, where did it come from and what is the market price for the same quality, when there is only one source I am sure it is a scam of some sort, these mines sell to many many many people across the world.

    So anyone know anything about this 'elestial calcite' or white moldavite? Found in the Mohave Dessert by ONE man who scrubs it with a wire brush? Sold for around 10.00 a gm. ~ I have some white calcite soaking in hydrachloric acid, I will let you know if it looks and feels the same in a few days or weeks.... :)
  • Here's my problem - what Simmons says (which I generally like) and what he does (the trademark thing). After watching some of his seminar on crystals of the new age and knowing what he charges for a bag of rocks (don't get angry - I don't think they're just "rocks" but I'm headed for a point here), I'm starting to wonder if the 1% are the only ones headed for the New Age. Mind you, my definition of a 1%-er has less to do with material wealth than the attitude about having it.

    Say I'm a guy who's eating and living reasonably well off the sale of some books and a few really cool seminars. Say I hit upon a vein of quartz that has a very strong, positive message that is beneficial for the healing of Earth. To be realistic, it's going to cost to get it out of the ground and processed into some usable (and marketable) form - machinery, insurance, mineral rights, employees making an ethically appropriate wage - and probably cost a lot. I mine it, cost it out, and figure out how to make the sale of this crystal help me cover the cost of my next mining project by setting a reasonable profit percentage. All good business, and a logical way to ensure that any "new" crystals can be made available.

    If these stones are so beneficial for this healing process, why wouldn't you want them to be accessible (I didn't say free) to everyone who has been called to work with them? Is this New Age being funded by the Koch brothers or something? In our Western culture, we frequently equate the price we pay for something to its value, so maybe stones with the potential of Azeztulite (I refuse to put the TM) have to cost a little more than tumbled rose quartz for us to pay attention, but REALLY? I room with a Satyaloka yellow, an astaraline, and some guardianite (and a hundred or so other friends) and appreciate their uniqueness and strength. I guess I just have an unrealistic expectation of altruistic behavior based on the fact that some of Simmons' theories really resonate with me, even though his business ethic does not, and it makes me a little angry sometimes.

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